FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT GRAMPIAN 30
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I will be keeping an eye on the other Grampian Forums and adding here any interesting information regarding repair and maintenance from these other sites plus any information you want to provide on "fixes" you have made to your Grampian 30 that others might find of interest. Please contact the Webmaster with any suggestions.
How to treat play in your rudder
Hole in G30 Keel
Forestay Fitting Failure
Centre Board Problems
How to treat play in your rudder
Last fall I dropped my rudder as I had some play to be addressed. The rudder is held in place by a pin that goes through the stock and swivels on a plate that simply sits on the cockpit floor. After 28 years of use the pin was bent and worn flat on each end where it rubbed on the floor plate and the floor plate was dished.
I have now had made a new and improved system that the maker is offering to any other G 30 owners, or other size if suitable, at a very reasonable cost.
This modification may require some minor surgery on top of the rudder to ensure that it lifts high enough to enable the pin to engage in the hole in the rudder stock due to the slightly increased thickness of the 2 plates.
I attach a photograph that shows both the old worn out system and the new system waiting to be installed.
Anyone interested should contact Gord Martin at [email protected] - it seems that the boats do differ in certain aspects such as the distance between the pin hole in the rudder stock and the shoulder where the stock is reduced in diameter so Gord will need specific measurements on any orders so communication with him before manufacture is essential (Peter Davidson)
Hole in G30 Keel
I am considering buying a G30. This particular boat has a rectangular area just below where the keel is joined to the hull that appears to be filled with some kind of filler that shrunk over time. The broker tells me that Grampian had plans to make a deep bilge at one point but they never followed through with the idea so in the factory they filled that hole with Styrofoam and filler. This deteriorated over time and at some point someone tried to fill the whole with some kind of filler but did a bad job at it.
My question is: does this ring true? Is that something I should be concerned about? What is the best to way to make repairs?
My boat deteriorated in somewhat the same way and I consulted with Gill Bibby who was a production supervisor for Grampian and who supervised all the G30 line (among others). In my case the cavity was filled by a rectangular plastic box filled with foam. Gill indicated that the initial mold for the keel resulted in a keel that was a bit too heavy. As a simple fix and to keep the weight low, the keel manufacturer was instructed to just put a plug in the mold to create the hole. You may wish to confirm this with Gill by contacting him at http://www.gillbibbyboatbuilding.com/ and ask for his advice. He was very helpful when I went to visit him some years ago.
In my case, I just filled the box with closed cell foam and re-faired the area. The deterioration appeared to be due to repeated freeze-thaw cycles after the box took on water.
Can you describe the process you used to fill the hole in some detail?
Unfortunately I can't relate the details. It's been a few years and I had a fiber glass guy do it for me. I think the cavity was filled by a plastic box which in turn was filled with foam. But the box was no longer sealed, allowing water in. As I recall, he drained as much water as possible, let it dry for a while, injected closed-cell foam and then glassed and faired over the lot.
As for filling the hole (without a box already in place), perhaps you can arrange plywood 'plates' for each side of the keel with small holes to inject foam. These can be held in place with thru-bolts (threaded rod) thru the cavity. Then, when the foam has set up, remove the plates and thru-bolts and fill the bolt holes with more foam. Then proceed with glass and fairing from there. I'm not sure if a barrier or release agent on the bottom of the hull would be advisable or not. You probably don't want the foam to stick to the hull if/when the hull and keel ever need to be separated. (Bob Wieber)
Upon striping the bottom of the boat for refinishing, I discovered the source of water that seeped out of the keel each winter (the hole). The hole in my keel had been covered with fiberglass and Bondo, and was filled with a pieces of foam and seemly anything else Grampian had lying around, that were saturated with water. I repaired the problem by completely removing the Bondo and foam from the hole. Then made a form on each side from some thin paneling and filled the hole with a closed-cell foam (won't absorb water). Once the foam dried, I removed the forms and sanded it smooth to the shape of the keel. Then covered the foam with fiberglass and micro-balloons to completely smooth things out. After this repair, I complete the refinishing project with Interprotect 2000E followed by VC17m.
Regarding cleaning out the old stuff in the hole.... go ahead and remove the plastic box (if there is one) and all contents of the hole. You should be left with a hole that is the bare lead keel only. Clean it completely out, don't try to reuse any of the junk Grampian put into the keel. Then form a mold to inject the closed-cell foam using 1/8 plywood. Secure the plywood to the sides of the keel using 1" drywall screws (drill some pilot holes for the screws) into the keel. Drill a hole in each piece of plywood, near the top, only large enough to inject the foam thru. The only purpose for replacing the junk in the hole with foam is to create a uniform shape to the keel. The closed-cell foam won't absorb water should water penetrate the fiberglass and other coatings you will apply over the foam. (Jeremy Thompson) (Back)
Question: I'm thinking seriously about replacing the floor in my G30, currently we have carpet over a plywood sub-floor. Replacements are typically teak & holly and I don't really understand why. I'm thinking strongly about cedar > as it is fairly resistant to water rot, possibly mahogany or a very durable > laminate flooring.
Any advise on why or why not to do this would be greatly appreciated.
Suggestions: Teak & holly flooring is hard and doesn't absorb moisture as much as other woods. I am replacing my floor as well and I went with marine grade ribbon mahogany. The mahogany cost around $60 where the teak & holly would have been over $200. Lots of paint or varnish will seal the wood and should give you a good floor. I'm putting about 10 coats of Wood Mate on my floor. I have 6 coats on now and you can see your reflection. The previous owner put in normal finished grade painted plywood as a floor and it lasted about 4 years before it started to rot & become soft. (Brian Lumley)
I Covered my plywood floor with , that Pergo laminate , I wanted a light colour on the wood with some durability , It worked out somewhat o.k. and it stiffened the floor making it solid.
1 pkg Pergo ( Mine was Light Maple )
On the base of the Pergo floor it is a waxed plastic , I tried epoxy on it to glue to the plywood but it didn't stick. Sanded off the plastic base then epoxy to plywood, much better.
Once on, cut our to match the plywood , then using a round over router bit , go all the way around, (or ogee bit , which ever you prefer, Note you will be removing the Pergo laminate , which leaves the MDF ( I believe ) exposed. Do all your screw holes , then apply West epoxy to seal all exposed MDF.
More of a decorative nature I put 4 bras screws in each plank which also secured it the plywood. Once finished screw back down. Use the same method for each of the bilge access ports then put a nice brass flush ring pull on each.
Sore spots : Not tradition teak and holly
After I screwed the floor back in place , for addition installs i.e. bilge pump I have had to lift up the floor which requires removing the screws , when the screw comes up the head catches the laminate and lifts a chunk out from the floor. Re-address the screw holes and find a screw system that can come out with out damage, yet remain flush when installed.
What you need is to install brass V flush inserts , but I am not sure if any body makes them.
Heavy , you've added extra weight. not always a racing thing.
Plus's : durable
easy to clean
rot and mildew treatment already applied
lots of colours to choose from
accessible from local hardware store
can be done at home , in workshop during winter. (Paul Guy Lachance)
I Covered my plywood floor with , that Pergo laminate , I wanted a light colour on the wood
On removing the screws , when the screw come up the head catches the laminate and lifts a chuck out from the floor. What you need is to install brass V flush inserts , but I am not sure if any body makes them but Lee Valley sells brass countersunk washers that may do this job: (Tim Nye) (Back)
4. Deck Drains
Having problems with leaking Deck Drains. Here is one solution.
I removed the leaking bronze thru decks, glassed over the deck drains and created scuppers just under the toerail in my Classic 31. seems to be a better leak free result. (Craig Ludwin) (Back
Question has been asked whether Headroom in Centreboard G30 is same as in keel version.
Response seems to be that 'Yes, both have a headroom of 6' 4"' (Back
Concern has been expressed by some owners regarding the cast aluminum forestay fitting cracking and giving way with the disastrous results of the mast falling back. There is further discussion on this subject in the Grampian 26 and Grampian 23 FAQ sections.
For those looking for a good fix, Stainless Outfitters (www.stainlessoutfitters.com) out of Barrie, Ontario are offering a replacement stainless steel fitting. Their "one of" price is around $900 but this could be reduced through multiple orders. $900 may be high but when you consider the cost and possible injury caused by failure of the part, it could represent a low cost. These are photos of their units.
Click on thumbprint for larger image
Another Forestay Fitting Failure: One of my customers brought this casting in last week. This is a replacement for the original casting and it lasted a mere 2 weeks.
As you can see, not only did the chainplate portion fail but the casting also chipped where the front leg of the bow rail is inserted. I think there is only one conclusion to be reached, someone has gone into the business of re casting these stem heads and is using the wrong alloy. During the days when Grampian was building boats ,they used a foundry down on Front St in Toronto. The alloy they were using was Almag 35 which was used specifically for it's strength. My guess is that someone is using a utility grade aluminum and are not aware of the dangerous situation they are creating. (Stainless Outfitters)
Click on thumbprint for larger image
I am new proud owner of G30. My first project will be to fix the large leaky portlight. Does anyone have any experience replacing the window gasket?
arine.com/ gasketpage. html
Is is difficult job? Does it work? I'm looking for any tips you can give
I replaced the windows on a G26 using this gasket. Once you get the hang of it the job goes pretty easily.
First thing is to check the gasket you have. Holland Marine sells two shapes, and they told me Grampian used both.
If you replace the plastic windows, you need butyl tape or double sided foam tape to stick the window to the inside of the frame. If I remember correctly, the tape was about 1/16" thick, and I found double sided foam tape (just like what was originally there) for about $5 a roll. Check with window glass places, and you can probably get the stuff locally for much less than the $21.47 that Holland charges.
I used my thumb, a putty knife and a small screwdriver to work the "hook" edge of the gasket into the frame. The big trick is going around corners. The stuff doesn't like to bend tightly at room temperature, but warming it with a hot air gun did the trick. It didn't have to get too hot to handle with bare hands before it was soft enough to fit the curve.
The other suggestion is to not put any tension on the gasket as you fit it into the frame. If the gasket is stretched any it eventually creeps back to its original length and pulls away from the corners or pulls in a gap at the joint. I learned this the hard way, and the fellow I sold the boat to got some gaps (Sorry David!).
The other thing that made the job easier was using a scaffold along side the boat (which was out of the water). It was a lot easier standing on the scaffold and working at chest level than trying to sit on the side deck. (Tim Nye)
I too am doing my windows this spring.
Wondered about foam vs buyl tape.. was wondering if the foam tape you get from CDN Tire etc for sealing would be as good? More pressure on the pane, but does it seal any better or worse? As you say you can get a roll or two of that for $15 to do the whole boat as opposed to $21 whatever.. I think you need 2 rolls for a 26. I am doing all the windows.
I used the butyl tape as a temp fix 'till I rebed them. the advantage is that it is removable and i dont know if that foam is. i would use caution if the foam is perm, as you may need to perform another operation in the future. I used silicone and it is holding up like a charm. (Quinn McColly)
I would like information on how the floor timbers were originally installed on the Grampian 30. Mine were replaced by the previous owner. Though I think they are strong enough, they did a pretty crude job and they don't extend any where near the bottom of the bilge. What are they made of? Does this sound right? If so I'd like to raise the floor timbers and make the whole floor level and possibly beef the hull up a little. (Briggs Monteith)
On my G 30 the floor timbers are about 4-5 inches from the bottom of the bilge. They not only support the cabin sole but do provide a bit of structural support but I am not sure how much. The keel bolts are down against the fiberglass at the bottom of the bilge.
I have talked to another G 30 owner and he had to replace his due to a wee bit of rot. Mine were replaced sometime before I purchased the boat and I have had to repair one of them at the base of the mast which separated from the hull.
I cannot see any reason why you cannot raise the floor higher to get a little more storage. On mine, I cut holes in the plywood so that I could have access to the bilge for storage from one end to the other. Instead of carpet which the boat originally had, I epoxied down strips of 1/8 inch thick teak plywood. I did about 10 coats of varathane on it and have not touched it in the last 13 years. Still looks good.
Did think about raising the sole before I did it but then it would have changed the height to the top of the seats which would have made for uncomfortable seating. (Jim M)
On my G30 the Floor Timbers are made of two thicknesses of 3/4" marine plywood. It appears that the two layers were bonded together with resin and they are tabbed to the hull. I would be surprised if they added much to the hull integrity. Hope this helps. (Harold Redden)
My sole timbers are also above the bottom of the bilge and, IMHO, for good reason. That space allows all the bilge water to collect in one place and be pumped by just one bilge pump. As for raising the sole, it's not clear why you would want to do it. I agree with Jim that it would likely compromise the seating comfort. Try sitting for a time on the various seats with your feet supported at the proposed height of the new sole. Seems to me that the seat(s) behind the table are comfortable only because one can stretch out beyond the higher sole at the edge of the seat. (Bob Weiber)
I put a divider in the bilge about 2 feet in front of the engine so that any bilge water from the stuffing box etc. would stay in the back. Put a plug in the divider so that I can drain the forward part if necessary or for washing it out. Over a season I may get two cups of water in the forward section of the bilge. I carry one battery in a box in the bilge. Forward of that I have plastic bins that go up to the bottom of the cabin sole. Carry all canned goods in the bins as well as beer, pop etc. When we go cruising it is for two or three weeks and there is no stores to go to on our part of the lake. When we were spending winters in the Bahamas on the boat you would have been hard pressed to put anything as small as a sardine can in it. We spent about 4 months there and there is a shortage of stores and prices are high. I also carry a spare anchor rode and chain as well as spare parts, cleaning stuff etc. My floor timbers are two layers of 3/4 plywood bonded to hull with a filler compound and no glass on them(Jim M)
We are looking to purchase a G30 with centreboard keel, and just found out that that it does not function! The current owner purchased the boat 7 years ago in this condition, the prior owner had it pinned in its retracted position, and had told them there was a "design flaw" with the cabling system.
The current owners say there are very happy the way she sails without using the centerboard, that they felt it might be needed for "ocean sailing". However, I think these folks might be more fair-weather sailors. I've read some posting from a Grampian owner somewhere that it probably wasn't noticeable in winds less than 15 knots, but above that there would definitely be a performance hit. Not sure if this was regarding a G30 or a G26 centerboard. Can anyone with a G30 centerboard let me know of their experience?
Also, does anyone know if there is a reasonable fix for this issue, and what it involves? While the basic principle is fairly obvious, I'm totally unfamiliar with centerboards. Exactly what is the G30 centerboard made of, and roughly how much does it weigh? (Michael)
I have a 30 with a centerboard and have mostly sailed it with the board up.
The way it was set up in mine originally was with two 'L' shaped brackets that ran horizontally on the flat bottom of the keel and then up inside the slot. A pin ran across the slot supported by a hole in each bracket. The brackets were lag bolted into the lead from the bottom. Eventually these lags worked loose and the whole lot of it fell to Davey Jones except for the board, saved by it's wire pennant. My board is glass with a 20 or 30 lb lead plug in it down low.
That fall after haul out, I ran a half inch SS rod through the keel and pinned it at each side through a small hole I drilled at each end. Sure I have a small protrusion where there didn't used to be one but so what? I haven't had a lick of trouble out of it since. The wire pennant however continued top rot out every other year so I switched to a high strength fiber cord recommended by the marina. It's been doing great for several years now.
As for why the centerboard on this one you are looking at is pinned up I don't know but it may be that the owner had a similar problem with the brackets and pennant and simply made the problem go away. The cabling issue you reference probably involves the sheave down in the bilge the pennant goes over as it turns down into the slot. My boat has a frustratingly small access port to this sheave via a 3/4" hole and threaded bronze plug. Not sure about other G30s. You'll probably have to take a wood saw and go up on each side of the slot and hack away all the stuff that is likely growing up in there when it comes time to free it up. It's a fixable problem though and easier to handle than many you could encounter on a sailboat.
I am assuming a few things when I say that, one of them being that the previous owner was more lazy than industrious when it came to fixing the problem. I have sailed mine quite a few miles both along shore and off and as I said, I rarely put the board down. But that's just me. I'm definitely not a racer and admittedly a little lazy when it comes to heading when I have the option to be. (Bryan Allen)
Only 20 to 30 that would explain the little noticeable difference as that's not enough weight to make much impact on the righting moment. It must increase the highest point into the wind and top speed. (Bob Sparks)